A ministry of deliverance

MBH: Please describe the ministry.

John: Gerald and I were drawn into deliverance ministry in March, 1997, when some students came to talk about an experience of seeing an apparition in the chapel. They thought the chapel needed cleansing from demonic powers. We went in there and discerned very quickly that the problem was not with the chapel, but with the people involved. That began a series of meetings with students, discerning that there were demonic powers involved and casting those out in the name of Jesus. That is how it started. Part of the catalyst was a Discipleship course I was teaching, which included a section on spiritual warfare. Last fall, Gerald and I also spoke in chapel on spiritual warfare. Out of that, a number of people came and asked whether they could be tested for the presence of evil powers.

Gerald: Some people also came by referral from Student Life personnel at the College or from friends.

John: A few also were referred to us from one or two of the local churches.

Gerald: What we do is recognized by the college administration, as outlined in a document called "Standards and Guidelines for Deliverance and Prayer Counselling".

MBH: How does the ministry operate?

Gerald: First, we do an assessment. We do it two ways. One is to ask them why they think they might be demonized. Second, we have a list of things we ask about. It is not an exact list--every so often somebody reports something that's not on our list. It is a list of a combination of things--besetting (habitual) sins, which may have given entry to the demonic; conditions or symptoms they may have; things that they or an ancestor may have been involved in, such as occult activities, pornography or sexual abuse.

There are other things that we always do. We want outside prayer support, for example, organized by us and preferably by the client. We also pray with the individual. Sometimes we will sing a hymn.

John: We read Scripture to deal with specifics. Sometimes the Lord will direct us to specific passages.

Gerald: We encourage the client to bring along a trusted friend. There are times when that person is spiritually sensitive and senses the direction we ought to be going or senses the presence of an evil spirit that we are not sensing. Because of his gifting, John also sometimes senses directions we ought to be going. This is not part of what I am able to do usually.

John: I want to underscore the importance of prayer. We prefer not to go into deliverance unless we have a prayer team supporting us. I have a team of a half-dozen people in my church that I regularly ask for prayer when we are in these sessions, and Gerald has people that he calls on. Sometimes students will know of our meetings and will be praying as well. Without prayer support, we are not able to do anything; we don't have any power at all.

MBH: What sort of training do you have for this?

Gerald: There have occasionally been seminars, and I am aware of one or two institutions in North America that will provide training. My training consists of 15 years of conversations with someone who has been heavily involved with this ministry. That person learned from a retired pastor. So, the lore of this ministry has been passed along in a sort of underground way because the North American church in general has not wanted to think about this area. It's all right if it's over in a foreign field somewhere, but it has generally not been recognized in North America. That is changing. I had been involved in about a dozen sessions as an observer over a period of years. I'd read three or four books on the topic. So I had a familiarity with the issues before I was called upon to participate.

This College in the past had courses a couple of times, one by Timothy Warner from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, possibly the most highly educated worker in this area in North America. Rauna May gave a course here as well. She is a Foursquare pastor in New Westminister (B.C.) who went to Argentina on a mission trip and was introduced to this.

John: My training is more limited. I had been involved in a few sessions led by others and had some exposure to the teaching of Peter Wagner, Cindy Jacobs and others. The Elijah House training for prayer counselling that I have taken also has an emphasis on inner healing and deliverance. I have read a number of books on the subject as well. But much of it comes out of experience. We have found that each person we deal with is different. You can't build a systematic way of working through these issues.

Gerald: Formal education would be valuable; it just isn't available.

John: We didn't go looking for this ministry; it came to us--so we just began to do things, trusting the Spirit and the power of God to overcome the forces of evil.

MBH: What sort of problems do the students have?

John: One of the things we have encountered a number of times is distraction. The person can't focus. They want to go to prayer, want to go to Scripture, want to worship, but it's like there is a fog that they can't get through.

Gerald: People will fall asleep in Bible classes quite apart from their level of exhaustion. They will drift off when they open their Bible. There is interference with their spiritual life.

Another major area is sexual experience. Numbers of people, both male and female, have been sexually abused; a rape has taken place; sexual promiscuity has been present in their own lives or in the family background. We talk about ancestral sin. Through this, evil spirits can be introduced into a life. A two-year-old child might be sexually meddled with and acquire evil spirits that way. So we are not talking about people necessarily being great sinners.

Involvement in the occult is another area. It is a little less common but still there in our student body.

MBH: How are these issues dealt with?

Gerald: We take them through a process of renunciation of the devil and all his works. We take a stand upon their position in Christ and on the blood of Christ. Then, as we go through a warfare process, we will have the individual renounce individual evil spirits. We do not take the position that sin originates with the evil spirit. The sin often originates with the individual, so we also take people through a repentance process.

John: What often is required is that the entry points for the demonic have to be dealt with, especially if it is a besetting sin or something like that. We can drive out the evil spirit because we have the authority in Jesus to do that, but if the ground that the evil spirit was hanging on to isn't dealt with through confession, repentance and forgiveness, then it allows the spirits to come back. It could be a root of bitterness because of what happened in the past or a spirit of unforgiveness on the part of the individual. If they are not willing to repent of these sins, it will be difficult to get rid of the demonic, or the demonic powers will come back. That is why we often combine inner healing with deliverance.

MBH: Does this say something about what is going on in our churches?

John: Yes, but it also says something about what is going on in our culture, and the phenomenal influence our culture is having on children and youth today. Being in the church is no guarantee against the invasion of demonic powers because of the amount of influence coming from the media, the educational system and culture in general. We need to recognize we are living in a post-Christian world. The worldview of kids in the church is not a lot different from those outside because the amount of time they spend in church and the amount of teaching they are getting is not nearly enough compared to the outside influences. Parental influences are still very strong in the lives of kids, but our experience here has been that a lot of times parents aren't aware of many of the things their kids are into. They just don't realize where their sons and daughters are at.

Gerald: It is a reflection of what isn't happening in the churches. The conventional church is afraid to deal with this area.

John: There is a great deal of fear. You mention the demonic or evil spirits and some people almost panic. They think it can't be possible. Africa, South America, India, yes, but this is North America. The activity of demonic powers is much greater in our culture today than most Christians are prepared to recognize. This fear keeps blinders on people. That is also one of the ploys of the enemy. If you get people living in fear anytime demonic powers are mentioned, evil can beat us all up. If we are afraid, we will all be running. Yet, Scripture is clear in telling us to put on God's armour and stand, not turn and run. We must recognize that we are on a battlefield.

Gerald: It is also that we have subtly begun to believe that sin is not a spiritual issue, just a psychological issue. If a person is deeply involved in a particular sin, the church, like the world, will say that person is sick or needs counselling, when in fact they may need repentance and deliverance. The counselling can emerge from that if it is necessary. We are not willing to confront problems from a spiritual perspective first. We might pray for a person who needs counselling, but we might not do a diagnosis to see if the demonic is involved.

MBH: What should churches be doing about this?

Gerald: The church should be willing to use the giftedness of their members. In every congregation there are people who are gifted to discern spirits. We have seen that when a friend has come with a client and joined in discerning the spirits. It seems to me that these people are all over the place, and yet they are not being used or don't even know they have the gift.

MBH: Is there anything else you want to add?

John: Just because we are involved in deliverance does not mean we are more spiritual or more attuned to God. Rather, it's a matter of gifting that God has given, and responding to a need. Whether we will be doing this again next year, I don't know. At this point, I don't see it becoming less. We are simply available to what God wants and sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I am also becoming more aware of the immenseness of God's power. Because of that, we don't have to be afraid.

We are not dealing with the demonic in isolation, but as part of the whole life. Growth in holiness and Christlikeness is an ongoing process.

We have a lot of students here who have a tremendous sensitivity, who spend lots of time in prayer and listen to what God is saying to them. When those students go back to their churches, they take with them an awareness of the power of the Spirit to work through them. The idea is not to scare other Christians, but to help people who need to be set free--not just from demonic stuff but from all kinds of other bondages. Many Christians struggle with enormous bondage. We talk about freedom in Christ, but how many believers are living in freedom?

Gerald: Young people right now are more aware of demonic issues than their elders are. If the church does not take spiritual warfare under its umbrella, the young people are going to do it anyway. If they don't have older believers discipling them in this area, some things could go very wrong. So hiding one's head in the sand and saying we don't want this in the church is not going to solve this problem.

John: It is an exciting time to be involved in the church and with young people. There is a real hunger to know God, live in victory, be set free and experience everything God has for us. And inevitably when people are set free, they want to share this with others. We have had different ones come back and bring other students. That has been very encouraging.

Gerald: What I would like to see is the demonic being checked for as a matter of course in a number of problem areas that people have. The person might not be demonized. We have had some come to us to be checked out, and they have not been demonized; they simply had a problem. Too often churches consider the demonic only as a last resort after counselling, prayer and self-discipline have been tried. That ought not to be the case. They should check the demonic along with all those other things.

John: I don't know what gives people in our culture the notion that there isn't much demonic activity going on. Why would evil spirits not want to do stuff in North American culture? It may look different from Africa, but the demonic is evident all around us. Turn on the television. Listen to the news. Why are things happening the way they are? I think much of it has to do with people being driven by the powers of evil.

Gerald: We have an immense amount of social evil in this country. Where does that come from? It is not simply that a political party is to blame. Demons work in concert with fallen human nature.

John: We have had our head in the sand too long in this whole area, and need to be awakened to the reality of the powers of evil and then recognize that God's power is so much greater. We don't have to be afraid.

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